不滿考古團隊被當承包商 劉益昌:想幫台灣留下文物 - 土木
By Kyle
at 2015-12-04T11:02
at 2015-12-04T11:02
Table of Contents
※ [本文轉錄自 Gossiping 看板 #1MN67WpK ]
作者: saroyan (Malcolm) 看板: Gossiping
標題: Re: [新聞] 不滿考古團隊被當承包商 劉益昌:想幫台灣留下文物
時間: Mon Nov 30 22:49:02 2015
原文恕刪~~
其實文化考古跟營造工程本身是一個非常大的衝突
看到joinwu大會這麼憤慨我也是可以理解的
其實我本身工作就是做政府的營造工程的 而本魯的女友又剛好是考古的工作者
我想我應該可以相對中立一些的去講這件事情
考古的文史工作者一般都不喜歡這些無視珍貴資產的文盲廠商
反過來承攬工程的廠商也很討厭這些挖死人骨頭的文史工作者
(原諒我用比較粗俗的字眼形容,但雙方實際上差不多都是用這種態度面對對方)
這一切 其實政府要負最大責任
俗話說 砍頭的生意有人做;賠錢的生意沒人做
大家出來混都只是為了討口飯吃
而目前根據文化資產保存法的規定
不管你是做什麼工程 只要有挖到文物相關東西就是要通報給主管機關
然後主管機關去決定看是要變更設計閃掉還是要做文物的搶救
如果是後者通常就是再發一包考古的去做搶救這樣
而這整個過程短則數月,長則數年 這段時間工程都只能停工或先施作其他部位
那如果你是承包工程的廠商你會怎麼做?
幹我當然是裝死裝不知道啊! 不然整間公司可能因為挖到個遺址就直接GG了
挖到遺址是賠爆的事情! 挖到遺址是賠爆的事情! 挖到遺址是賠爆的事情!
很重要所以我說三次!!!
原因有幾個:
1.通常承包工程的廠商財務槓桿都很大 標到一個案子就是先貸款再說
工期被拖延 貸款要不要利息? 工程款要不要給材料商和下包?
要啊~ 公司本不夠粗的還不出錢就直接GG了
2.包商投標時都要繳納押標金、履約保證金之類的給業主
這筆錢通常是佔工程款總額一定比例 換句話說 越大的案子越貴
但是這筆錢是 沒 有 利 息! 的 如果工程拖越久 你等於損失越多
3.材料、設備、人員等等的折損才是最可怕的 比方說一個橋樑工程你訂購了一堆鋼筋
都運到工地了 錢都給廠商了 現在突然說挖到遺址
幹那這些東西我要怎麼辦啊 放太久生鏽就全部都不能用了啊~~
難不成要像柯P說得拿去賣破銅爛鐵喔?!
請來進駐的員工 協力廠商 機具設備等 都只能叫他們喝西北風了...
4.政府發給承包商的工程契約通常都沒有相關的補償辦法
她們會做的就是 喔! 挖到啦 停工吧! 然後就等處理完再繼續進行工程
啥補償都沒有
所以包商一般遇到文化遺址 一律都是先裝死在說
一個案子這麼大金額 光拖時間就夠賠死你了
如果你是包商的人還去通報的話那一定是你不想幹了!
更何況文化資產保存法的相關規定 罰責都罰不多
相關規定最高就50萬或100萬而已
對於一個數以億計為工程款的廠商來說只是零頭而已
當然寧願冒被罰款的風險
目前小弟經手過的案子就有過幾案挖到東西都沒人講的事情
(拜託不要查我水表 )
不能怪他們 因為一講的話可能真的會被蓋布袋 隔天便成工地一隅的混凝土結構物
政府的相關文史工作者和一些民間"有心人士"當然也知道這種狀況
所以一有大型開發工程通常會派人在那邊顧
觀察廠商施工過程有沒有挖到什麼有價值的文物
他們通常很低調 都裝作路人甲在工地晃來晃去
因為被知道身分的話很容易遭來施工廠商白眼
誇張的還會給你鞭數十驅之別院
如果真的發現什麼文物的話就是一則以喜 一則以憂了
憂的是工程廠商上面已經提過就不贅述
喜的就是那些文史工作者 有珍貴資產被發現當然值得高興
更何況政府如果再發一包考古的標案又可以賺錢
目前台灣考古幾乎可以說是孤門獨市的生意 沒什麼競爭
除了中研院、台大等官方機構外 民營目前我知道的也只有兩家
而每家能夠承接的能量也有限 所以價格上真的比起高度競爭的營造工程好太多了
通常他們最高成本的地方都在倉管沒錯 數以萬計的標本要歸類歸檔 加上恆溫恆濕
每個月空調電費就爆炸了 但還好通常標案單價都不錯 這通常都不是問題
所以以最近新聞的劉研究員來說 他願意代表中研院把大餅分給別人吃
幹這是慈善事業啊!! 怎麼會有人扣他為了賺錢的大帽子哩...
所以我在猜應該是包商和當地民代的壓力很大
畢竟通車了馬上就有選票 挖一堆考古文物則沒有任何幫助...
站在第三者立場去思考
這些遺址如果被破壞了真的非常非常可惜
整個東南亞南島族群來說 我們台灣的遺址真的是非常豐富且重要的
甚至有很多跡象顯示我們台灣可以說是起源地 (Taiwan NO.1)
我只能說希望政府盡快修改採購法等相關法規
給工程承包商因為文化遺址的損失能有適當的補償
目前我們看到的是有被通報的 沒有被通報的不知道還有多少被破壞掉了
真的非常非常可惜....
--
作者: saroyan (Malcolm) 看板: Gossiping
標題: Re: [新聞] 不滿考古團隊被當承包商 劉益昌:想幫台灣留下文物
時間: Mon Nov 30 22:49:02 2015
原文恕刪~~
其實文化考古跟營造工程本身是一個非常大的衝突
噓 joinwu: 沒有蘇花改,最好會知道那邊有遺址,還不是坑夫挖到往上通11/29 11:59
→ joinwu: 報,最好考古隊神成那樣,以姓劉那個漢本遺址來說是谷風隧11/29 11:59
→ joinwu: 道南口南下線發現的當初是知道有個土地廟,南下線開挖土地11/29 12:00
→ joinwu: 廟下方才發現那些東西,你考古團隊有本事就到處去拆廟找遺11/29 12:00
→ joinwu: 址啊11/29 12:01
噓 joinwu: 光是南口南下線就停工半年以上,你叫那些坑夫工人東北季風 11/29 12:08
→ joinwu: 嗎11/29 12:08
→ joinwu: 蘇花坑夫24不停工每天輪進,隧道不是外面那種工地隨便做到11/29 12:12
→ joinwu: 哪都能停,洞口那批人朝九晚五,早上我進洞時沒看到人,晚11/29 12:12
→ joinwu: 上看開挖面時又下班了,啊不就好棒棒 11/29 12:12
看到joinwu大會這麼憤慨我也是可以理解的
其實我本身工作就是做政府的營造工程的 而本魯的女友又剛好是考古的工作者
我想我應該可以相對中立一些的去講這件事情
考古的文史工作者一般都不喜歡這些無視珍貴資產的文盲廠商
反過來承攬工程的廠商也很討厭這些挖死人骨頭的文史工作者
(原諒我用比較粗俗的字眼形容,但雙方實際上差不多都是用這種態度面對對方)
這一切 其實政府要負最大責任
俗話說 砍頭的生意有人做;賠錢的生意沒人做
大家出來混都只是為了討口飯吃
而目前根據文化資產保存法的規定
不管你是做什麼工程 只要有挖到文物相關東西就是要通報給主管機關
然後主管機關去決定看是要變更設計閃掉還是要做文物的搶救
如果是後者通常就是再發一包考古的去做搶救這樣
而這整個過程短則數月,長則數年 這段時間工程都只能停工或先施作其他部位
那如果你是承包工程的廠商你會怎麼做?
幹我當然是裝死裝不知道啊! 不然整間公司可能因為挖到個遺址就直接GG了
挖到遺址是賠爆的事情! 挖到遺址是賠爆的事情! 挖到遺址是賠爆的事情!
很重要所以我說三次!!!
原因有幾個:
1.通常承包工程的廠商財務槓桿都很大 標到一個案子就是先貸款再說
工期被拖延 貸款要不要利息? 工程款要不要給材料商和下包?
要啊~ 公司本不夠粗的還不出錢就直接GG了
2.包商投標時都要繳納押標金、履約保證金之類的給業主
這筆錢通常是佔工程款總額一定比例 換句話說 越大的案子越貴
但是這筆錢是 沒 有 利 息! 的 如果工程拖越久 你等於損失越多
3.材料、設備、人員等等的折損才是最可怕的 比方說一個橋樑工程你訂購了一堆鋼筋
都運到工地了 錢都給廠商了 現在突然說挖到遺址
幹那這些東西我要怎麼辦啊 放太久生鏽就全部都不能用了啊~~
難不成要像柯P說得拿去賣破銅爛鐵喔?!
請來進駐的員工 協力廠商 機具設備等 都只能叫他們喝西北風了...
4.政府發給承包商的工程契約通常都沒有相關的補償辦法
她們會做的就是 喔! 挖到啦 停工吧! 然後就等處理完再繼續進行工程
啥補償都沒有
所以包商一般遇到文化遺址 一律都是先裝死在說
一個案子這麼大金額 光拖時間就夠賠死你了
如果你是包商的人還去通報的話那一定是你不想幹了!
更何況文化資產保存法的相關規定 罰責都罰不多
相關規定最高就50萬或100萬而已
對於一個數以億計為工程款的廠商來說只是零頭而已
當然寧願冒被罰款的風險
目前小弟經手過的案子就有過幾案挖到東西都沒人講的事情
(拜託不要查我水表 )
不能怪他們 因為一講的話可能真的會被蓋布袋 隔天便成工地一隅的混凝土結構物
政府的相關文史工作者和一些民間"有心人士"當然也知道這種狀況
所以一有大型開發工程通常會派人在那邊顧
觀察廠商施工過程有沒有挖到什麼有價值的文物
他們通常很低調 都裝作路人甲在工地晃來晃去
因為被知道身分的話很容易遭來施工廠商白眼
誇張的還會給你鞭數十驅之別院
如果真的發現什麼文物的話就是一則以喜 一則以憂了
憂的是工程廠商上面已經提過就不贅述
喜的就是那些文史工作者 有珍貴資產被發現當然值得高興
更何況政府如果再發一包考古的標案又可以賺錢
目前台灣考古幾乎可以說是孤門獨市的生意 沒什麼競爭
除了中研院、台大等官方機構外 民營目前我知道的也只有兩家
而每家能夠承接的能量也有限 所以價格上真的比起高度競爭的營造工程好太多了
通常他們最高成本的地方都在倉管沒錯 數以萬計的標本要歸類歸檔 加上恆溫恆濕
每個月空調電費就爆炸了 但還好通常標案單價都不錯 這通常都不是問題
所以以最近新聞的劉研究員來說 他願意代表中研院把大餅分給別人吃
幹這是慈善事業啊!! 怎麼會有人扣他為了賺錢的大帽子哩...
所以我在猜應該是包商和當地民代的壓力很大
畢竟通車了馬上就有選票 挖一堆考古文物則沒有任何幫助...
站在第三者立場去思考
這些遺址如果被破壞了真的非常非常可惜
整個東南亞南島族群來說 我們台灣的遺址真的是非常豐富且重要的
甚至有很多跡象顯示我們台灣可以說是起源地 (Taiwan NO.1)
我只能說希望政府盡快修改採購法等相關法規
給工程承包商因為文化遺址的損失能有適當的補償
目前我們看到的是有被通報的 沒有被通報的不知道還有多少被破壞掉了
真的非常非常可惜....
--
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at 2016-06-24T15:16
By Sarah
at 2016-06-28T09:09
at 2016-06-28T09:09
By Ursula
at 2016-07-01T17:32
at 2016-07-01T17:32
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at 2016-07-05T23:04
at 2016-07-05T23:04
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at 2016-07-07T01:35
at 2016-07-07T01:35
By Ethan
at 2016-07-07T09:55
at 2016-07-07T09:55
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at 2016-07-10T18:39
at 2016-07-10T18:39
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at 2016-07-11T05:16
at 2016-07-11T05:16
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at 2016-07-13T18:35
at 2016-07-13T18:35
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at 2016-07-18T04:41
at 2016-07-18T04:41
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at 2016-07-22T02:03
at 2016-07-22T02:03
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at 2016-07-22T15:36
at 2016-07-22T15:36
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at 2016-07-24T21:55
at 2016-07-24T21:55
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at 2016-07-28T20:50
at 2016-07-28T20:50
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at 2016-08-01T22:59
at 2016-08-01T22:59
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at 2016-08-02T06:16
at 2016-08-02T06:16
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at 2016-08-04T22:28
at 2016-08-04T22:28
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at 2016-08-05T02:05
at 2016-08-05T02:05
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at 2016-08-09T03:22
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at 2016-08-11T00:46
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at 2016-08-14T10:14
at 2016-08-14T10:14
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at 2016-08-17T23:06
at 2016-08-17T23:06
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at 2016-08-22T16:00
at 2016-08-22T16:00
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at 2016-08-22T19:04
at 2016-08-22T19:04
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at 2016-08-23T14:50
at 2016-08-23T14:50
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at 2016-08-28T13:48
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at 2016-08-29T15:05
at 2016-08-29T15:05
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at 2016-08-31T04:55
at 2016-08-31T04:55
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at 2016-09-04T20:56
at 2016-09-04T20:56
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at 2016-09-06T08:00
at 2016-09-06T08:00
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at 2016-09-09T15:55
at 2016-09-09T15:55
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at 2016-09-10T05:08
at 2016-09-10T05:08
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at 2016-09-11T10:12
at 2016-09-11T10:12
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at 2016-09-16T08:10
at 2016-09-16T08:10
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at 2016-09-21T06:50
at 2016-09-21T06:50
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at 2016-09-25T21:53
at 2016-09-25T21:53
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at 2016-09-26T09:28
at 2016-09-26T09:28
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at 2016-09-30T10:27
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at 2016-09-30T15:01
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at 2016-10-07T03:26
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at 2016-10-07T15:05
at 2016-10-07T15:05
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at 2016-10-07T19:29
at 2016-10-07T19:29
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at 2016-10-08T05:02
at 2016-10-08T05:02
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at 2016-10-12T23:18
at 2016-10-12T23:18
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at 2016-10-17T21:56
at 2016-10-17T21:56
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at 2016-10-22T18:13
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at 2016-10-27T12:41
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at 2017-01-02T09:43
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at 2017-01-06T14:22
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at 2017-01-17T09:13
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at 2017-01-21T19:33
at 2017-01-21T19:33
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at 2017-01-23T19:28
at 2017-01-23T19:28
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at 2017-01-28T16:36
at 2017-01-28T16:36
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at 2017-01-29T06:55
at 2017-01-29T06:55
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at 2017-02-02T17:42
at 2017-02-02T17:42
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at 2017-02-07T10:36
at 2017-02-07T10:36
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at 2017-02-11T12:33
at 2017-02-11T12:33
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at 2017-02-14T08:39
at 2017-02-14T08:39
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at 2017-02-15T08:37
at 2017-02-15T08:37
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at 2017-02-17T22:23
at 2017-02-17T22:23
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at 2017-02-20T12:36
at 2017-02-20T12:36
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at 2017-02-24T18:38
at 2017-02-24T18:38
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at 2017-02-25T17:13
at 2017-02-25T17:13
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at 2017-03-01T06:17
at 2017-03-01T06:17
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at 2017-03-06T05:23
at 2017-03-06T05:23
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at 2017-03-10T10:59
at 2017-03-10T10:59
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at 2017-03-12T06:20
at 2017-03-12T06:20
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at 2017-03-16T18:51
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at 2017-03-17T14:15
at 2017-03-17T14:15
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at 2017-03-22T04:19
at 2017-03-22T04:19
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at 2017-03-25T11:38
at 2017-03-25T11:38
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at 2017-03-26T13:36
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at 2017-03-28T18:06
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at 2017-04-08T21:22
at 2017-04-08T21:22
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at 2017-04-11T17:00
at 2017-04-11T17:00
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at 2017-04-14T02:49
at 2017-04-14T02:49
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at 2017-04-17T11:39
at 2017-04-17T11:39
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at 2017-04-19T17:02
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at 2017-04-21T09:20
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at 2017-04-25T04:22
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at 2017-04-29T14:36
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at 2017-05-12T20:31
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at 2017-05-16T01:07
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at 2017-05-17T02:27
at 2017-05-17T02:27
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at 2017-05-17T03:32
at 2017-05-17T03:32
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at 2017-05-20T09:14
at 2017-05-20T09:14
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at 2017-05-24T10:57
at 2017-05-24T10:57
By Madame
at 2017-05-27T19:18
at 2017-05-27T19:18
By Audriana
at 2017-06-01T04:24
at 2017-06-01T04:24
By Elizabeth
at 2017-06-04T04:53
at 2017-06-04T04:53
By Agatha
at 2017-06-06T23:13
at 2017-06-06T23:13
By Frederica
at 2017-06-09T19:29
at 2017-06-09T19:29
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at 2017-06-12T05:43
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at 2017-06-15T14:46
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at 2017-06-17T15:30
at 2017-06-17T15:30
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at 2017-06-19T22:53
at 2017-06-19T22:53
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at 2017-06-22T01:45
at 2017-06-22T01:45
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at 2017-07-02T07:26
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at 2017-07-05T03:39
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at 2017-07-18T04:40
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at 2017-07-20T10:07
at 2017-07-20T10:07
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at 2017-07-21T02:11
at 2017-07-21T02:11
By Robert
at 2017-07-23T17:45
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at 2017-07-28T02:03
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