台商部門主管 vs 外商小主管 - 加班

By Bennie
at 2022-10-11T18:43
at 2022-10-11T18:43
Table of Contents
如題
相信這個話題在板上已經是老生常談
絕大多數的鄉民,都會建議到外商公司
但由於情況發展有點戲劇化,想聽聽看板友的看法
文長慎入
------------------分隔線-----------------------
小弟今年34歲,育有一子,有家庭壓力/房貸/車貸
因緣際會下,好友介紹一名Hunter,洽談一個歐商業務主管的職缺
主要負責半導體廠業的建廠規畫,這間公司歷史悠久,剛好有到台灣建廠的規劃
預計找一名Sales manager ,可以說是一個全新的部門
包含自己/身邊的相關產業友人,也都認為這是一個非常難得的機會
回到目前的工作,是一間滿有規模的台商進口商,有幸在這邊也是擔任部門主管一職
管理約10人的團隊,在短短5年部門規模也有著超過5倍以上的成長
由於剛好也是新部門,可以說是非常深受老闆重用,資源/調薪算是慷慨
但小弟心中總是有一個外商夢,原本預期就算薪水少一點,也想過去洗經歷
果真,雖然外商沒有給到足額要求,但也比原薪資多出40%
誰想到上周拿到offer提出離職意向,台商老闆直接開出比外商offer又多出40%的調幅
但我很明白,這個薪水是公司的破格演出,已經頂破天花板了
當下可說是受寵若驚,一時不知道怎麼應對
比較表如下
---------------------我是分隔線------------------
公司 台灣進口商 歐商原廠
地點 離家近 南部(可Home base)
(由於是業務職缺,地點可能沒那麼重要,都在高鐵上)
職位部門 部門經理 業務經理
工作內容 1.傳產/電子產業產品銷售 1.產品銷售
2.部門管銷 (目前已知)
3.人員管理
4.幾乎所有雜事
薪資 保底150+(50-150獎金) 保底150+(30獎金)
獎金不一定拿的到
(依慣例至少都有50) 獎金不一定拿的到
公司配車(24/7) 1KM=14元補助
備註:以上是調整完畢薪資
工時 8小時 主管說沒加班文化
全天候彈性工時
沒加班文化
備註 1.年度調薪3~5% 1.聽說外商調薪有感
2.績效分紅 2.這間外商很好做跳板
3.每年有歐洲/美洲看展機會
4.工時彈性
------------------------分隔線--------------------------
這篇文章看完,相信有人會覺得我很傻,當然選錢多的
但是,小弟在這間公司已經服務接近10年,多少有一些疲乏與無力
台商的工作其實很雜,但老闆給的權限與資源,真的非常非常有感
對我也是非常的重用
算是非常好的舞台,難免有一些戀棧
畢竟在台商做久了,就是這些東西
本著一直有一個外商夢,期望事業舞台,剛好這間外商
身旁半導體業的主管友人,紛紛建議我嘗試
外商公司的主管,剛好是一個老外,可以判斷不是一個台商皮的外商
身邊屆齡退休的心靈導師兼大學長,建議我:兩個選擇都不錯
原先建議我離去的人,聽到這樣的counter offer
也有一些「改建議」再多待個2-3年,再找也不遲,畢竟在這間薪水頂天,也上不去了
各位客觀怎麼看?
--
相信這個話題在板上已經是老生常談
絕大多數的鄉民,都會建議到外商公司
但由於情況發展有點戲劇化,想聽聽看板友的看法
文長慎入
------------------分隔線-----------------------
小弟今年34歲,育有一子,有家庭壓力/房貸/車貸
因緣際會下,好友介紹一名Hunter,洽談一個歐商業務主管的職缺
主要負責半導體廠業的建廠規畫,這間公司歷史悠久,剛好有到台灣建廠的規劃
預計找一名Sales manager ,可以說是一個全新的部門
包含自己/身邊的相關產業友人,也都認為這是一個非常難得的機會
回到目前的工作,是一間滿有規模的台商進口商,有幸在這邊也是擔任部門主管一職
管理約10人的團隊,在短短5年部門規模也有著超過5倍以上的成長
由於剛好也是新部門,可以說是非常深受老闆重用,資源/調薪算是慷慨
但小弟心中總是有一個外商夢,原本預期就算薪水少一點,也想過去洗經歷
果真,雖然外商沒有給到足額要求,但也比原薪資多出40%
誰想到上周拿到offer提出離職意向,台商老闆直接開出比外商offer又多出40%的調幅
但我很明白,這個薪水是公司的破格演出,已經頂破天花板了
當下可說是受寵若驚,一時不知道怎麼應對
比較表如下
---------------------我是分隔線------------------
公司 台灣進口商 歐商原廠
地點 離家近 南部(可Home base)
(由於是業務職缺,地點可能沒那麼重要,都在高鐵上)
職位部門 部門經理 業務經理
工作內容 1.傳產/電子產業產品銷售 1.產品銷售
2.部門管銷 (目前已知)
3.人員管理
4.幾乎所有雜事
薪資 保底150+(50-150獎金) 保底150+(30獎金)
獎金不一定拿的到
(依慣例至少都有50) 獎金不一定拿的到
公司配車(24/7) 1KM=14元補助
備註:以上是調整完畢薪資
工時 8小時 主管說沒加班文化
全天候彈性工時
沒加班文化
備註 1.年度調薪3~5% 1.聽說外商調薪有感
2.績效分紅 2.這間外商很好做跳板
3.每年有歐洲/美洲看展機會
4.工時彈性
------------------------分隔線--------------------------
這篇文章看完,相信有人會覺得我很傻,當然選錢多的
但是,小弟在這間公司已經服務接近10年,多少有一些疲乏與無力
台商的工作其實很雜,但老闆給的權限與資源,真的非常非常有感
對我也是非常的重用
算是非常好的舞台,難免有一些戀棧
畢竟在台商做久了,就是這些東西
本著一直有一個外商夢,期望事業舞台,剛好這間外商
身旁半導體業的主管友人,紛紛建議我嘗試
外商公司的主管,剛好是一個老外,可以判斷不是一個台商皮的外商
身邊屆齡退休的心靈導師兼大學長,建議我:兩個選擇都不錯
原先建議我離去的人,聽到這樣的counter offer
也有一些「改建議」再多待個2-3年,再找也不遲,畢竟在這間薪水頂天,也上不去了
各位客觀怎麼看?
--
All Comments

By Kumar
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Tom
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Xanthe
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Olivia
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Olive
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Andy
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Emily
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Poppy
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Frederic
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
但搞不好只是養套殺,反正你不辭職之後一切好弄

By Caroline
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
是真的

By Victoria
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
幾年要換工作是很好的資歷。

By Agatha
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Olivia
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Jack
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Megan
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
要分辨清楚

By Vanessa
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Michael
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Oliver
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
畢竟還是選錢多的

By Zanna
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Kyle
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Hedy
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Kyle
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
麼
如果是可以在外國公司跟外國人一起工作覺得很夢幻
外商沒比較好 都幾歲的人了

By Emily
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Michael
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Blanche
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Heather
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
能力屌不用怕進不了外商 而且去草創部門幹嘛 要也
是去已經有制度規模的

By Donna
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
機會當外商主管 那就跳吧 不要老了才想圓夢

By Dinah
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Quintina
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
很想去但是薪水-40% 要我不會考慮降薪跳槽啦

By Edith
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Vanessa
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
有的是單純薪水,有的是挑戰自己,你呢?

By Susan
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Dinah
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Victoria
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Irma
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Dorothy
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By William
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Elma
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Irma
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
能性都被這邊給限制住了?

By Jack
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
管。真的是高潮過度

By Lydia
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
一下加十幾二十%的

By Mason
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Harry
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
砍人雖然不眨眼, 調薪也是很有感的。 趁現在年輕體
力好敢闖, 走出去。 老了會越來越離不開現狀

By Joe
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Suhail Hany
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
的幻想,而是你對更大舞台,世界舞台的期望。

By Delia
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Ethan
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
被挽留

By Victoria
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Olive
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Daniel
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
!所以本來是想多壓榨員工...

By Zanna
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Necoo
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
多少 就直接去了吧 不要猶豫了

By Yuri
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Agnes
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Todd Johnson
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
是真的是你想要的風景再回來也不遲啊...

By Valerie
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Mason
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
對自己有信心,就勇敢跳脫舒適圈吧。

By Gilbert
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
景氣不好會砍人尤其又是業務單位

By Margaret
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Gary
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
而且你十年才升,確定留著不搞你?

By Yedda
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Oscar
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Jake
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
就不要去了,有太多你想像不到的

By William
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
會持續幫你調

By Irma
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
我嘛

By Hardy
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Anthony
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Ida
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
不太需要拿以前那套看現在的老闆

By Skylar DavisLinda
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By William
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Irma
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
卡位...

By Faithe
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Charlie
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
rf才比較有用XD

By Elvira
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Candice
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Hedda
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Elma
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Lily
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Rosalind
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
外商砍人不手軟,尤其先砍國外部門

By Quanna
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Hazel
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Caroline
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
覺得CP值不高。

By Cara
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Annie
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Skylar DavisLinda
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Joseph
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
如果關係維持好,先去外面再回鍋也是一種選擇

By Anthony
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By David
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
比起虛無飄渺且薪水沒比較多的外商夢,我是你的話會
續留現在的公司
何況你又要養家+一堆貸款@@

By Blanche
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Todd Johnson
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
勢在哪

By Ida
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Eden
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Agnes
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
的話我不會去啊 XD 外商開180我是覺得...很抖

By James
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
外商但是覺得你的狀況留台商好,外商lay人真的不手
軟,我猜你的外商是英飛凌吧

By Caitlin
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Selena
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
外商是克服你自己心魔的必要修行。沒有親自走一遭
,永遠會有低人一等的遺憾。和老闆懇談後勇敢離開
吧,日後有緣再聚首對現在公司也是有益不是嗎?我
也都是這樣鼓勵下屬離開追夢的。

By Charlie
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Valerie
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Megan
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Oliver
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Odelette
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
選擇

By Lauren
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Daniel
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
肯定一年後是什麼薪資職等,兩年後是什麼薪資水平職
等

By Isabella
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By John
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
外商夢不錯 但不一定真實 外商砍人真他媽不手軟 我
進去4個月就被砍了...
老東家你離開基本上等於背叛 就算能回的去 原本的
資源也不會放在你身上了...
畢竟你“曾經”背叛過 腳色對調一下
你養了10y的人 有天說要去外商夢
被打過來才想回鍋 你是老闆會再相信幾分?

By David
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
還能找到別間 不然薪水差距也不大
看起來給的權力也要看你kpi...
沒比較好

By Elizabeth
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Regina
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Ursula
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
但離開後 其實發現原單位真地爽
也有可能你在外商發展更好
沒有一定 不要後悔就好

By Rebecca
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Megan
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Quintina
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
到你的未來嗎?能夠承諾你想要的職涯嗎?當然還有現
職的護城河是否夠深,以及是不是家族企業文化,只能
自己想清楚,真的沒走過都不知道

By Audriana
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
]都有200萬,何況是薪水更高的業務缺… 另外,外
商的砍人文化就不多談! 要問你自己的是,若是你現
在跳台商,你會覺得找工作完全不是問題嗎? 非技術
職,外商跳回土商容易的說法要打折扣,更多的是缺被
佔走哪都去不了! 若是對自己求職的人脈與價值有信
心,那外商可以一試,會看見很多不同的事物。

By Rosalind
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Mia
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Hamiltion
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
你參考

By Frederic
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By David
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Dora
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Enid
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
看看沒什麼救

By Doris
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Yedda
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
種田

By William
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
軟。1.因為你只會換到更好的工作。2.台商某些文化,
爛人不砍的風氣,大家養老不求進步的風氣,才是逼走
優秀人才,使人低薪的元兇。

By James
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Audriana
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
過的base再去拿+40%外商offer。

By Skylar DavisLinda
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Ursula
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
利用完會不會砍了都不知道

By George
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Callum
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Skylar DavisLinda
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Ethan
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Jacky
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Eden
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Kelly
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Genevieve
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Selena
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
公司,要不找原公司老闆再聊聊,畢竟千里馬也是要有

By Candice
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Carol
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Franklin
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Skylar DavisLinda
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
真的是很受重視的人才,我覺得有舞台也很重要,去到

By Tracy
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Belly
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
維持不動。

By Andrew
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Oscar
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
管但以後想跳其他外商也很容易被抓辮子

By Skylar Davis
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
在條件跳‘真’主管的外商,2.跳過去後想辦法在2年
內跳去能實際帶人的外商主管缺,不然當腳麻時很容
易被刷掉

By Irma
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Blanche
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Annie
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Ina
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Skylar DavisLinda
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
起來就是原本的工作比較好

By Zenobia
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Heather
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Hedy
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Hamiltion
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Gary
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Lucy
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Edward Lewis
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
…

By Lucy
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Vanessa
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
薪水能負擔的住就好了

By Kama
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Vanessa
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Elma
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
對你重視程度,如果一樣相等的重視那確實可以考慮看
看去找一個夢,但我個人會留下來

By Joe
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
但是他要先加給你 才算數

By Quintina
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Jacob
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
的理由吧 除非打算一直跳槽我才會考慮
但前提還是台商確定有加給你這些錢而不是嘴巴講講(
有些老闆會要你做出個什麼成果或是給你限制條件

By Jessica
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Eden
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Kristin
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Oscar
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
去談看看吧,說不定還能往上加

By Caroline
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Linda
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Rachel
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
職繼續躺比較好。

By Anthony
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Gilbert
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Audriana
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Catherine
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
的薪水再去挑戰外商能否再+40%

By Lucy
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
anager跟product manager不是主管職啊

By Kyle
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Daniel
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Tracy
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Bennie
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Noah
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
跳槽好

By Rosalind
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Joe
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Edwina
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58

By Barb Cronin
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50

By Christine
at 2022-10-09T20:58
at 2022-10-09T20:58
發文又說在台塑四寶…嗯…

By Yedda
at 2022-10-12T21:50
at 2022-10-12T21:50
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